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From: Marianne Arnold <>
Subject: Re: [NY-TROY-IRISH-GENSOC] Religous Persecution in Ireland
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:45:45 -0400
References: <451027.34758.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <451027.34758.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Yes, Tom, thank you very much. This is a valuable piece of
information, which I intend to keep. Marianne Arnold
On Jul 10, 2008, at 5:43 PM, Thomas J. Ebert wrote:

> A bit of a history lesson on religious persecutions in Ireland.
>
> Presbyterianism was the state religion in Scotland and initially
> under James I, Scot Presbyterians, including my Clugston and Conroy
> ancestors, were transported from SW Scotland to Ireland to populate
> the Ulster Plantation with dependable Protestants. James I had been
> raised a Presbyterian.
>
> His second son, who later became Charles I, was raised as an
> Anglican and was suspected of being a secret Catholic. The Anglican
> Church had been the established church in Ireland ever since the
> separation under Henry VIII as the Church of Ireland. Established
> church meant you paid taxes for the support of the church no matter
> your personal affiliation.
>
> As the Stuart dynasty became more English in outlook under Charles
> I and II, the Presbyterian faith in anywhere but Scotland became
> more suspect. As Scots or descendents of Scots, many Presbyterian
> Irish supported the Stuart king, Charles I, during the Civil War
> and paid dearly for it at the hands of the English Puritans.
>
> The Act of Union in 1707, when Queen Anne abolished Scotland as an
> independent state further raised the ire of many Scottish
> nationalists of every religious hue.
>
> When the Hanoverians under George I came to the throne in 1714,
> many Presbyterians whether in Scotland or Ireland were supporters
> of the Stuart pretenders, James III and Charles III so religious
> affiliation became more and more of a loyalty test. If you weren't
> Church of Ireland, you were suspected as a potential supporter of
> the pretenders and/or Scottish nationalism.
>
> Methodism, started in the mid-1700's) was wildly popular among the
> lower classes in England and among Protestants in Ireland and
> challenged the authority of the Anglican Church in England and
> Ireland, which made Methodism suspect. Also, it was in many ways a
> revival of "puritan ideas" and though a much less fanatical format
> than its 17th century antecedents, still a threat to the
> established order.
>
> While the Jacobite threat to the Hanoverians ended at the Battle of
> Culloden in 1746, no one was ever sure if another Jacobite
> rebellion supported by the Scot nationalists would surface. These
> conflicts spurred Presbyterian emigration to America including the
> Jackson family whose son Andrew would become President. By 1780,
> the Jacobite threat was diminishing because Charles was aged and
> feeble and the only male Stuart heir was his younger brother, Henry
> Stuart, Cardinal of York.
>
> When Charles died in 1788, Henry proclaimed himself Henry IX. When
> he died in 1807, the direct Stuart line came to an end. Charles and
> Henry are buried in St. Peter's Basillica.
>
> In 1782, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland was finally allowed to
> conduct its own baptisms and marriages and other forms of
> persecution were loosened and eventually removed. But preference in
> jobs and other opportunities went to members of the Church of
> Ireland. However, the Presbyterians had the ability to accumulate
> wealth and an education and could afford to move. They found
> emigration to the American colonies and Canada where they became
> Scot Irish. They also brought their anti-English, anti-Hanoverian
> monarchy sentiments with them which injected a powerful group
> promoting American independence.
>
> As Methodism became a mainstream religion by the end of the 18th
> century, persecution against Methodists were also lifted.
>
> Catholics, of course were a different matter. In Ireland
> identification with Catholicism went along with Irish nationalism,
> something the British spent four centuries trying to stamp out.
> Catholicism was viewed as subversive to the state (allegiance to
> the Pope) not only in Ireland but in England and America as well.
> George III refused to consider Catholic Emancipation as part of the
> Act of Union in 1801. However, in 1829, The Roman Catholic Relief
> Act was passed by Parliament to allow Daniel O'Connell to take his
> seat in Parliament.
>
> The passage of the act did nothing to repair the centuries of
> persecution, denial of property rights, politicial rights,
> education, employment and other basic human rights among Ireland's
> poor. Of course, like other persecuted groups, the Irish poor were
> then blamed for their illiteracy, lack of property, "shiftless
> ways" etc. Nothing changed for the average Irish Catholic peasant.
> Unlike their Presbyterian counterparts, they did not have the
> opportunities to get an education or accumulate wealth and were
> unprepared for the crisis of the 1840's which of course the British
> blamed on them.
>
> However, the British were ahead of the Commonwealth of
> Massachusetts which did not pass its own legislation allowing
> Catholics to vote until 1835.
>
> This is a capsulized history of the reasons for the persecutions of
> the various religious groups in Ireland. I hope everyone finds it
> useful.
>
> Tom Ebert
>
>
> --- On Thu, 7/10/08, Lynn <> wrote:
>
>> From: Lynn <>
>> Subject: Re: [NY-TROY-IRISH-GENSOC] TIGS Data Base/Church Memorials
>> To:
>> Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:47 AM
>> It is interesting that you would mention the Methodist
>> Church. My GG
>> randmother immigrated to this country as a widow with four
>> daughters. They
>> were Methodists and I have been at sixes and sevens trying
>> to get
>> information about them. I have asked Methodists active in
>> their churches and
>> they looked at me as if they thought I was crazy. I saw a
>> notation in a book
>> that at some time in Irish history the Methodists and the
>> Presbyterians were
>> persecuted in Ireland. This was a big surprise to me and
>> that is the only
>> reference I have ever seen of such persecution. I suspect
>> that it was not
>> from Catholics because at that time they were busy fleeing
>> religious
>> persecution themselves.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Rebecca Rector"
>> <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [NY-TROY-IRISH-GENSOC] TIGS Data Base/Church
>> Memorials
>>
>>
>>> Bill - I think this is a great idea! And once we
>> finish the Catholic
>>> Churches, it would be nice to do some of the
>> Protestant Churches also.
>>> Many
>>> Irish attended Protestant churches in the area. I
>> have been computerizing
>>> the vital records from North 2nd St. Methodist Church
>> (at Historical
>>> Society), and I'm seeing more and more Irish
>> names, especially in the
>>> later
>>> records (1880's).
>>> There also may be other buildings, such as chapels
>> etc. in the area that
>>> would have memorial windows. I am currently
>> researching a family who had
>>> a
>>> memorial window at RPI, but sadly, the building burned
>> in 1904. I wonder
>>> what happened to those windows??
>>> Rebecca (count me in for helping with this project!)
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Lynn" <>
>>> To: <>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:02 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NY-TROY-IRISH-GENSOC] TIGS Data
>> Base/Church Memorials
>>>
>>>
>>>> You know that when the St. John's (Episcopal)
>> in Cohoes closed and moved
>>>> to
>>>> Vliet St.,the city of Cohoes took over the old
>> church and now uses the
>>>> building as the Cohoes Library. I really commend
>> the politicians who made
>>>> that possible. They were (of course) anxious to
>> remove any signs of
>>>> Christian habitation and in doing so donated four
>> panels of stained glass
>>>> windows to the new church. They did retain the
>> Tiffany windows for
>>>> obvious
>>>> reasons. The new church paid to have the windows
>> restored and mounted in
>>>> the new church. When researching the windows for
>> insurance purposes we
>>>> discovered that they were the work of a man who
>> survived the holocaust
>>>> (he
>>>> was in a concentration camp)and immigrated to this
>> country where he
>>>> eventually was commissioned to do windows in the
>> National Cathedral in
>>>> Washington. That certainly upped the premium!
>>>>
>>>> My point is this; that I have always felt a sense
>> of sadness and loss
>>>> when
>>>> I
>>>> see windows donated by people to honor their loved
>> ones dumped along with
>>>> the churches that housed them. I think it would be
>> great to try and get
>>>> some
>>>> laws on the books to insure that they do not just
>> crumble and fall apart.
>>>> Certainly there are new churches that might want
>> to inherit them and even
>>>> pay for the restoration and installation in their
>> churches. I was
>>>> recently
>>>> in St. Joseph's church (in Albany now in the
>> process of restoration) for
>>>> a
>>>> concert and it was sad to see how the windows had
>> deteriorated and how
>>>> much
>>>> it was going to cost to have them restored. Is
>> there any organization
>>>> that
>>>> concerns itself with preserving the donated
>> windows? Even if they just
>>>> took
>>>> pictures and recorded the information it would be
>> a way of honoring the
>>>> families who often sacrificed to donate a window
>> in memory of their loved
>>>> ones. I think they thought it would a memorial
>> for ever.
>>>>
>>>> Another point...someone from Heritage Hunters told
>> me that someone was
>>>> transcribing the records from St. Particks church
>> in Cohoes (closed by
>>>> the
>>>> Diocese quite a while ago) but I have not been
>> able to track that down.
>>>> The
>>>> Catholic Diocese should be made aware that people
>> are interested in
>>>> transcribing records of churches that are closing.
>> It drives me crazy
>>>> when
>>>> trying to get information and being told that the
>> records were burned in
>>>> a
>>>> fire (like some of military records kept by the
>> government and census
>>>> records) or have been destroyed in some other kind
>> of disaster. The more
>>>> places the records are kept the safer our
>> heritage.
>>>> Anyway just a few thoughts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <>
>>>> To: <>
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 6:45 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [NY-TROY-IRISH-GENSOC] TIGS Data
>> Base/Church Memorials
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> I think this is a fabulous idea When reading
>> the story about St
>>>>> Lawrence's
>>>>> church It Made me think... It would be a
>> great idea to take photo's
>>>>> of
>>>>> the Churches and other historical buildings
>> to help preserve the
>>>>> memory
>>>>> of
>>>>> them I remember St Lawrence's was a
>> beautiful Church with Wooden
>>>>> Altars
>>>>> Pat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 7/7/2008 11:35:45 A.M.
>> Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>>> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> As a genealogy researcher we think of birth
>> dates, marriage dates,
>>>>> death
>>>>> dates, as the bare bones of an ancestors
>> record. What the individual
>>>>> did
>>>>> in
>>>>> life, what were the accomplishments, what
>> sacrifices were made, I
>>>>> think
>>>>> add
>>>>> "flesh" to that ancestors bones and
>> give us a better picture of that
>>>>> individual
>>>>> we never knew.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you look at the various TIGS projects on
>> line, you will see that
>>>>> approximately seven of the current TIGS
>> projects reflect this thinking.
>>>>> For example
>>>>> with the Alderman data base, we can observe
>> that our ancestor was a
>>>>> Alderman
>>>>> year in and year out in a particular ward in
>> Troy or with the Bank
>>>>> Officers
>>>>> data base we can see a lifetime of service in
>> a particular Troy Bank.
>>>>> These
>>>>> little details of a persons life add some
>> "flesh" to that persons
>>>>> history.
>>>>>
>>>>> So along this line it would be interesting to
>> have some list discussion
>>>>> on
>>>>> the following idea for a new TIGS project.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last year while visiting a son in Ridgefield,
>> Conn., I attended mass at
>>>>> St.
>>>>> Mary's Church and spent some time reading
>> the various inscriptions on
>>>>> the
>>>>> stained glass windows. Lots of information
>> on these memorials. Family
>>>>> names,
>>>>> individual names of family members, some
>> dates of death, etc. I
>>>>> thought
>>>>> then
>>>>> that this would be an interesting idea for a
>> TIGS data base on the
>>>>> various
>>>>> memorials in Troy area churches. If your
>> families ancestors scrimped
>>>>> and
>>>>> saved
>>>>> to donate a church memorial which carries the
>> family name wouldn't; you
>>>>> like
>>>>> to know about it? Does this information add
>> "flesh" to that ancestors
>>>>> bones?
>>>>>
>>>>> As many list members know, over the years
>> Troy has seen Holy Trinity
>>>>> Church,
>>>>> St. Lawrence's Church and St. Jean
>> deBaptiste Church all closed. If
>>>>> there
>>>>> were family names on memorials in these
>> churches are they still there or
>>>>> have they been removed? I know the names
>> from my family's church, St.
>>>>> Michael's, are long gone as the original
>> building was destroyed by fire
>>>>> in
>>>>> the 1970's.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the recent announcement of the possible
>> closing of the following
>>>>> churches in Troy, how many more memorials with
>> our ancestors names will
>>>>> be lost?
>>>>>
>>>>> List of Troy Churches From The Albany Times
>> Union:
>>>>>
>>>>> St. Mary's Church
>>>>> St. Paul the Apostle Church
>>>>> St. Peter's Church
>>>>> St. Francis de Sales Church
>>>>> St. William's Church
>>>>> St. Patrick's Church
>>>>>
>>>>> So, if any list members have any thoughts on
>> this idea, pro or con,
>>>>> they
>>>>> are
>>>>> invited to post their comments to the list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill McGrath
>>>>> TIGS Project Coordinator
>>>>> Clifton Park, NY
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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